when you compare the obama plan and the rise in budget plan, the obama plan is closer to simpson-bowles in terms of spreading the pain, protecting the most vulnerable and increasing revenue than the paul ryan plan is. apples-to-apples, simpson-bowles would increase tax revenue by about 4%, and the obama plan by about 3%, but the difference is the obama plan allows so -- allows for rates to rise. business leaders understand the need for more revenue. fix the dead -- when the key principles is more revenue -- , one of the key principles is more revenue. whether this support letting rates rise, or the simpson-bowles planned in getting -- and in giving away tax expenditures, it depends on the nature of their business, but they generally agree that they need new revenue and it needs to be offset with income reforms and that we need to get going. we cannot make it harder for ourselves by going over the cliff. host: spending needs to be on the table? guest: s, and i go back to simpson-bowles. if you look at the february budget presented by the president, and the march plan presented by chairma